Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea. Blog, Internet resources, online reading groups, articles and interviews, Illuminatus! info.

Wednesday, May 28, 2014

Talking with the real Simon Moon (one of them), Neil Rest


Neil Rest at Minicon 49, April 2014 in Minneapolis

When Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea were getting involved with anarchist politics in Chicago in the 1960s and early 1970s while working at Playboy magazine, Neil Rest was there. 

In fact, this interview is rather timely for the ongoing online discussion of Illuminatus! because there are traces of that Chicago sojourn in the book, and because Rest says that Robert Anton Wilson told him that the Simon Moon character in the book was based upon Rest, "Wobbly Surrealist" Franklin Rosemont and RAW himself.

Rest in fact turns up by name in a couple of places in Wilson and Shea's solo novels: As "Neal Rest" in Schrödinger's Cat (see below) and in the acknowledgements for Shea's All Things Are Lights (also as "Neal Rest.")

I became aware of Neil (a science fiction fan, active in fandom, as well as an anarchist) when he popped up in the comments for this blog, posting as "Neil in Chicago," so I asked him if he would take some questions by email and he agreed. -- The Mgt.

Can you tell me a little bit about yourself -- how old are you, do you still live in Chicago, did you keep up with Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea's writings over the years?

I'm 65.  My birthday is December 21, with Thomas a Beckett, Paul Revere, Disraeli, Kropotkin, Stalin, and Frank Zappa.

How did you get to know Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea when they were writing Illuminatus! ? Or did you meet them before then?

I think it was the spring of 1970, near the time I became a full-time SEED seller, I somehow heard of an anarchist conference at Wobbly Hall.  This was after the Wobs had moved from Halsted St. (described in Illuminatus! where Simon Moon's mother hears the gunshots that killed Dillinger) to the big second floor at 2440 N. Lincoln.  I recall that Solidarity bookstore was there too.
There were a dozen or twenty people, and at least from my perspective it was a great success, because it agglomerated an affinity group which was active for the next several years.  Parties, picnics, political actions.  I thought it was terribly funny that by far the longest-running political action was arguing over what to call ourselves.  We invented a site-specific name for each action, signing leaflets with whatever, but could never get close to consensus about ourselves.  Finally, I started calling us The Nameless Anarchist Horde, and that was as much name as the group ever had.  Shea did mailings announcing get-togethers and stuff, and called it The Nameless Newsletter.

I don't know when I found out Bob &  Bob were writing a book.  One of the things I say about Illuminatus! is that one of the few things that's clear about the book is that they stole material anywhere they could find it.  Many of the Horde are in the book, and at least one set of kittens.

Can you give me examples of how members of the Nameless Anarchist Horde found themselves in Illuminatus! ?

I'd have to go back and scan.  I do have a favorite example  There is a mention of three kittens, Clitoris, Penis, and Fred.  They were real; the fire-breathing feminist named her kitten Clitoris; her old man named his Penis in response; and the sweet pot head they lived with in turn responded by naming his kitten Fred.

One of the enduring mysteries of Illuminatus! is which Dell editor bought it. Do you happen to know, or do  you happen to know who might know?

No clue

Someone once told me that Kelly (one of the circle) had a copy of the 500 missing pages, but I eventually asked him and he said no.

Did you know Shea and Wilson from your mutual interest in anarchist politics? Did you feel you knew them well, and which one were you closest to?

That's how we met.  There was some sort of anarchist conference at Wobbly Hall when it was on Lincoln, I think in the spring of '70.  I have no idea how I heard of it, but I'm still in touch with six or eight of the people I met that day.

I'm sorry I didn't work with Shea more.  He was here in the near north suburbs while the Wilsons moved all over the place.  I mostly saw him when Wilson was visiting.  That post office box for Green and Pleasant Publications was Shea.

I was probably closer to the Wilsons.  Here's a clue for you:  If someone purports to have really been close to them, it's only true if they talk as much about Arlen as Bob.  She was very private (someone once told me she had never so much as had a bumper sticker on her car), but she was his equal and partner.  I'm no judge, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if she was more "spiritually advanced" than he.

After they left Chicago, I only visited occasionally, but made a real point whenever I was in California.  It was an enormous house in northeast Berkeley that Wilson first told me about Bell's Inequality (summer of '76, probably).  Someone recently did a history of the odd group who forced the physics world to take note, called How the Hippies Saved Physics. Wilson was their publicist.
And I visited in a little house in the flats shortly before the murder.  I'm tone-deaf to vibes, but even I picked up seriously odd vibes there. [Neil is referring to the murder of RAW's daughter Luna, discussed in Cosmic Trigger 1. -- The Mgt.]

And I may have helped at the end.  As a freelance writer, Bob never had financial security.  You know how broke he died  I was on the phone with one of his caretakers and insisted that they publicize the situation on the net, which they eventually did.  After one week they had to tell people to STOP sending money.

Isn't it true that Arlen Riley turned you on to Sufism?

The 1975 World Science Fiction Convention was in Australia.  I inherited several thousand dollars about a year before, so not only could I go, but I could spend time heading west to make a great circle home.

I spent my last week in the country in the Bay Area.  The Wilsons were in Berkeley, and always on my must visit list, and I did.  Somewhere in the conversation, Arlen asked if we had any Sufis in Chicago, because they were all over out there, and it takes about three years for something to get from Berkeley to Chicago.

After Australia, I spent three months in Indonesia, and then went down Malaysia to Singapore.  I was really hungry for reading material, and being Commonwealth, Singapore had marvelous Penguin book stalls.  (And probably the best street food in the world.)   So when I saw Idries Shah's The Sufis, I picked it up.  Shah seriously blew my mind, and I adore his work to this day, though I gradually learned not to trust almost anything he said about himself.

Incidentally, that's how it came about that I read parts 1 and 2 of Illuminatus! in Singapore, and part 3 in Jerusalem.

Have you read Chaos and Beyond, the "RAW and his circle" anthology? I ask because it has some of Arlen Riley's writings, and I wondered if it offered a pretty good picture of her.

I don't know that I'd ever heard of it.  I see it's collected from Trajectories, which I remember, but didn't follow meticulously.  Back here in Chicago, Arlen had been very active in an "anarcho-feminist" group called Siren, and wrote for/with them, but I don't know of too much else.

What's the scene in Schrödinger's Cat in which you appear?

I'm at the big Manhattan cocktail party where just everyone who is anyone is there, and the plot of the story keeps wandering through.  I can't give you a page, but I once copied it into my .sig file.  (Pat Murfin was GST of the Wobblies for a couple of years.)

I had remarkable hair.  There's another point at the party where someone is very startled -- "I just saw a sasquatch on the balcony!"  "Oh, that's just Simon Moon."  One of the bits of Simon which is most clearly me. [He's actually "Bigfoot," page 207 of the omnibus edition. The next paragraph is the other scene that features Neil. -- The Mgt.]

"There is a love that binds it all together, and that love is expressed in primate language as the love of a parent for a child, so Simon was not surprised to find Tim Moon pervading everything, or at least a kind of continuous Tim Moon potential that could be encoded again in another book or that could remain latent for long times, vaguely permeating every book. There were hundreds of thousands of other Wobs there, Frank Little and Joe Hill and Pat Murfin and Neal [sic] Rest and Big Bill Heywood and they were all singing like an outlaw Hallelujah Chorus:
"Though cowards cringe and traitors sneer
"We'll keep the Black Flag flying here"
 -- Schrödinger's Cat [Page 317 of the Omnibus, toward the end of The Trick Top Hat, in the section in which Simon Moon is toking on a pipe and ruminating. It's page 210 of the original paperback of The Trick Top Hat -- The Mgt.]

Would you describe what your current politics are? As a Chicagoan who probably heard of Barack Obama long before most of the rest of us, have you been surprised at how Obama has governed?

How I label my politics varies with circumstance and mood.  Often it's "lapsed anarchist", which is not inconsistent with the delightful "non-Euclidian."

I wasn't aware of Obama until he was already in the state Senate.  He's a South Sider and I'm a North Sider, so he almost might as well be from Milwaukee.  I was taken in; I'm still too regularly gullible, but for a couple of years now, one of my lines has been, "We used to have a name for politicians like Obama.  We called them 'Republicans.'  Jimmy Carter was the last President who wasn't to the right of Nixon."

Did you know "Wobbly Surrealist" Franklin Rosemont very well? Can you talk about how he provided some of the inspiration for the "Simon Moon" character in Illuminatus! ?

Nope.  Didn't know him.  When I saw Bob Wilson, probably later in the summer of '76, I diffidently stoked my ego by saying that I recognized a lot of people in Illuminatus! but not myself.  He  replied, "Simon Moon is a composite."  I'm not sure when, but I eventually found out it was himself, Franklin Rosemont, and me.

Did RAW and Arlen Riley ever talk about their courtship back in the 1950s? Didn't she already have children when she met RAW?

Nope  I can't say for sure if all her kids were Bob's.  Can't remember the question ever coming up.
One of the things I'm sorriest I never pursued is what Arlen did when she worked for Orson Welles (one of Bob's idols).

Why did you tell Robert Shea to begin using a computer for his writings? Were you yourself an early adopter of computer technologies?

Yeah, Shea inscribed my copy of Lights, "To Neil Rest, who helped illuminate the author'" and I said, "WOW!  I have no clue what you're talking about."  "Oh, you were the first person to tell me trhat I ought to be writing on a microcomputer."  And most of those historicals were written on an Apple II.  For me the farthest out thing in the book was to imagine a Cathar heretic.  I really loved that.

This fall, kinehora*, is the fiftieth anniversary of my first programming class . . .  I had the bug when integrated circuits were the cutting edge.

And in case you are thinking of asking, I'm a late adopter of the internet.  I've been on line for only 20 years.

(*a Yiddish anti-curse, literally "no evil eye")

A guy who lists the "Worldcon in the Bermuda Triangle" bid on your resume on Linked In must be pretty cool. 

Yeah, a bunch of "friends" made me chairman of a bid to hold the World Science Fiction Convention on a Carribean cruise.

134 comments:

Unknown said...

Great interview. A couple of things:

My father listed "Non-Euclidean" as his religion.

I remember the Bermuda Triangle bid worrying that they might win.

Oz Fritz said...

Yeah, excellent interview!

At times I do seem to live inside the Illuminatus! novel. A day after commenting about Concepcion Galore in Santa Isobel, a new student/intern named Isabel began working at our recording studio. I hope there aren't any daggers with flames about!

Jesse said...

Didn't she already have children when she met RAW?

I can answer that one. She had two children already; Wilson then fathered two more.

Chad N. said...

Hagbard owned a female kitten named Penis and a male named Vagina. When the cops came to bust him on drug charges the cats were part of his "antigram" attack...very cool!!!

Unknown said...

very useful to implement in Life.musiclapper

Evita Kiley said...


Its very usefull if every one sghould follow this.
DspzxWx

Mohamed alex said...

Thank you for this guidance.its really informative for all 17tian

Unknown said...


Really good one,every should like this
10000ye

Thirsha said...

Thank you for this guidance.its really informative for all neritak

Unknown said...


Not only to read need to spreed every one.steamy-sex-pictures

John Joeban said...



Informations are more inovative and nice to read it.
sixsensesdestinationspaphuket

hollyjpepper said...

Those post in the blog are very useful seed-music

Jambari Juma said...

What a good suggestion posted by the peopleszsftz

Thirsha said...

Simply super comments are posted here lvmjegel

Unknown said...


Information are more innovative and nice to read it.lordhowewindsports

John Joeban said...

Thank you for this tutorial.its really informative tutorial FcssjXxl

George jakzin said...

all the words in simpple way every one should understand easyly.
betteraid

John Joeban said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kazris said...

Really good one,every should like thischajrhockey

Jambari Juma said...

Informations are more inovative and nice to read it
design-machina

zeollo tomo said...

Not only to read need to spreed every one.mamakneads

Evita Kiley said...

Need to implement in my blog.

goldietaylorproject

Alvin said...

Peoples are giving wonderful thoughts…vecinosdebenalmadena

John Joeban said...

What a good suggestion posted by the peoples
indochinatourpackages

Jambari Juma said...


What a good suggestion posted by the peoples whatforaciphexbuy

George jakzin said...

Keep posting the articles,useful to every one.alloyfactory

Unknown said...

Thank you for this guidance.its really informative for all..collaborativelawpei

zeollo tomo said...

Nice work,keep going.
bubumudur

zeollo tomo said...


Peoples are giving wonderful thoughts…bubumudur

Unknown said...


All the words in simple way every one should understand easily.Jzyb

Zhara Timothy said...


its really informative tutorial. Thank you for this tutorial .
wlsxk

Jammy Ray said...

Keep posting the articles,useful to every one.
kompetisiog

Unknown said...

Must be appreciated for the article.fxbbx

Aarthi arun said...

Peoples are giving wonderful thoughts…

jedevelopment

Unknown said...


Need to implement in my blog.arts-domain

John said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bigshow said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Riyash Dev said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
prithiv said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sachin said...

Thank you for this guidance.its really informative for all. espejodepapelonline

Unknown said...

The information which you people are given are really superb..megaronstil

Gautham said...

Information's are more innovative and nice to read it hongkaoxiang

Steve said...

Need to implement in my blog kindredgoddard.

Mohamed alex said...

Its very useful if every one should follow this lu-cioles

Thirsha said...

Keep posting the articles,useful to every one brainram.

hollyjpepper said...

Simply super comments are posted here rebiro..

Moha said...

Thank you for this guidance.its really informative for all taxivna..

Sachin said...

Thank you for this tutorial.its really informative tutorial cqdezx

Unknown said...

Keep posting the articles,useful to every one tout-voir

Steve said...

valenciald all the words in simple way every one should understand easily.

Unknown said...

Peoples are giving the wonderful thoughts for all comments
qsnwhw

Evita Kiley said...


Beautiful post given by so many peoples. CqzhilengsHebei

dhanush simbu said...

Information's are more innovative and nice to read itblue-touch-communication
.

Unknown said...

So many peoples are given the wonderful comments for this articles
newageafricatrust

Gautham said...

Its very useful if every one should follow this israned

Unknown said...


Simply super comments are posted here.. KmlyCt

John said...

Thank you for this guidance.its really informative for all
motherschoicebirth

Priya said...

I am so excited while I read all the commentsdeadbug
.

Steve said...

Not only to read need to spreed every one spanimax

Unknown said...

Articles are really nice to read and most of the people like this
carpetsfair

Mohamed alex said...

Nice post. Every one should implement this one steingrimveum

John Joeban said...


Beautiful post given by so many peoples. TarragonaHotelSbExpress

Unknown said...

Thanks for giving the good informative tutorial
lahimss

bigshow said...

Nice Post and all information's are used to everybody
grokitbetter

Kazris said...

Thank you for this guidance.its really informative for all
pharmacie-oza-marseille

Thirsha said...

Information's are more innovative and nice to read it steingrimveum

Jambari Juma said...


Information's are more innovative and nice to read it.
BizHency

Thirsha said...

Information's are more innovative and nice to read it steingrimveum

rithika said...

Those post in the blog are very useful…..factoryswimwear

praveen said...

Nice Post and all information's are used to everybody
propacportugal

Unknown said...

Its really nice informative tutorial,so thanks for this tutorial
santabarbara-locations

George jakzin said...

Beautiful post given by so many peoples. wlsxk

Rajini said...

All the post are nice to read it...kitesurf-vietnam

Unknown said...

The information's are really good and peoples are given superb comments
wildernesslightstockphotos

hollyjpepper said...

Thank you for this guidance.its really informative for all activrtls..

Unknown said...

All the information's are more innovative
floridajumboloan

Vijay said...

Thanks for the comments which the peoples are give herelohasasiaforum
.

zeollo tomo said...

its really informative tutorial. Thank you for this tutorial .
TheWolfPublichouse

Unknown said...

I am really excited for read all the post
schlosshandel24

Mohamed said...

Thank you for this guidance.its really informative for all azalinfotech

Richard Marshal said...

Its really nice informative tutorial,so thanks for this tutorial
PacificRentalSolutions

Zhara Timothy said...


What a good suggestion posted by the peoples.
kyjd011

Moha said...

palangahotels its really informative tutorial. Thank you for this tutorial .

Madison Mia said...

All the information's are more innovative
bluegrassfever

Steve said...

Its useful to every one and keep posting mercenary-market

Evita Kiley said...

Need to implement in my blog. pulmonologi-ui

Mohamed alex said...

posterbride The information which you people are said here are really good..!!!

Unknown said...


its really informative tutorial. Thank you for this tutorial .
tourisme-mauricie

Thirsha said...

Really good one,every should like this stylewheel

John Joeban said...

What a good suggestion posted by the peoples. Lsklp

hollyjpepper said...

teleconnectga All the post are nice to read it...

Mohamed said...

All the post are nice to read it robertocescon..

Jambari Juma said...


What a good suggestion posted by the peoples. loveiswarclan

George jakzin said...


What a good suggestion posted by the peoples.
americansussexbreeders

Moha said...

Must be appreciated for the article iipus

Chennai said...

The information which you people are given are really superb venkconsult..!!!

zeollo tomo said...


Thank you for this guidance.its really informative for all..
fydershanesi

ChloeZoey said...

Thanks for the comments which the peoples are give here
brwpaper

Gautham said...

Its very useful if every one should follow this twodoorsbbq

Zhara Timothy said...

The information which you people are given are really superb..!!!
glb-trainingcenter

Vishali Riyo said...

thepalacesliemahotel
Nice post. Every one should implement this one.

Evita Kiley said...

Those post in the blog are very useful…..
wowgbw

John said...

Very useful comments are posted and everybody like this
heqinghotel




Unknown said...

Nice post. Every one should implement this one. yourcoach247

Unknown said...

The information's are really good and peoples are given superb comments
gardencitylocalfest

John Joeban said...


Really good one,every should like this. nicejewishgirlsdc

Unknown said...

All the information's are more innovative
alacatiizmir

bigshow said...

Need to implement in my blog
mikissecret




Jambari Juma said...

Keep posting the articles,useful to every one. hayarvest

Unknown said...

I am really excited for read all the post
gmedmil

George jakzin said...


I am so excited while I read all the comments. picturesofhungary

praveen said...

Technically very well above you said
spenglerfoxbelfast




zeollo tomo said...

Articles are very nice…Nice comments too. worldisfunny

Unknown said...

All the post are very useful to implement in our life
ctrivertours

Zhara Timothy said...


Must be appreciated for the article.
afgang

Unknown said...

Not only to read need to spreed every one
CumbreDeltaNgo




Jammy Ray said...

Simply super comments are posted here. tiklatatil

Kazris said...

Really nice,everybody like All the Post
whatsthedealwithdinosaur

Unknown said...

All the post are very useful to implement in our life
aquiferscience

Aarthi arun said...

Thanks for the comments which the peoples are give here. saskoilpatch

Unknown said...

Some articles are related in our life,so nice
supportaw

AllinOnePestControl said...

Nice to read all post and more innovative
escon2013

HMS Janitorial Service said...

The information's are useful for every people
maddoxnails

Unknown said...

Really nice,every one should like all the comments
wildthingsscotland

Evita Kiley said...


Nice work,keep going. budgetorfudget

Vishali Riyo said...

Nice post. Every one should implement this one. i3ggroup

prithiv said...

Nice post. Every one should implement this one. greatsmokiesinsurance

Riyash Dev said...

Nice post. Every one should implement this one. Zaoxi

Unknown said...

Articles are very nice…Nice comments too. bcnig

Vijay said...

Thank you for this tutorial.its really informative tutorial. daniellenadongolf

Rajini said...

Thank you for this guidance.its really informative for all.. twodoorsbbq

rithika said...

its really informative tutorial. Thank you for this tutorial . apex-grp

Priya said...

Not only to read need to spreed every one. bluewaterseafoodredbank

dhanush simbu said...

Good stuff comments here... Nice to read it bookofurbanism