D. Scott Apel's book Philip K. Dick: The Dream Connection is a key document for Dick fans. The anthology includes a very long interview with Dick and pieces by Robert Anton Wilson, R. Faraday Nelson and Dick himself. Lawrence Sutin, author of Divine Invasions: A Life of Philip K. Dick, says Apel's book is "Hands down the most joyous and entertaining book on Philip K. Dick."
For some useful background on the book, see below for an interview with Scott conducted by his friend, ej "Jami" Morgan.
This interview first ran in PKD OTAKU #22, 14 May 2011.
ej Morgan is a writer based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Among other books she is the author of the novel A Kindred Spirit. Scott describes it as "A brilliant novel about a woman who believes she's getting post-mortem messages from PKD." You can visit her official website.
Here is Ms. Morgan's original introduction to the interview:
Never underestimate the “Phil factor.” And if you wonder what that means, D. Scott Apel’s Philip K. Dick: The Dream Connection is as good a place as any to dive in for a big dose. For instance, just as Editor Gregg Lee and I were discussing pulling the 1987 book out of mothballs and taking another look at it, Scott announced he is re-releasing the book as a trade paperback this spring. That’s synchronicity.
Who among us has not thought of a favorite PKD book, and had it turn up at a used book store? But, the more you dig in and learn about Phil’s real-life experiences, the freakier the Phil factor gets. Synchronicity becomes deeper and more Dickian. Scott found out first hand – with both real Phil and post-Phil encounters – and those accounts are the essence of The Dream Connection.
Morgan further reports (in 2026) " I did a lengthy telephone interview with Scott in the late 1990s that was supposed to appear in Issue #8 of Radio Free PKD. Sadly, there was no Issue #8. Greg Lee stopped printing the ‘zine after Issue #7." But OTAKU editor Patrick Clark agreed to run it, she says.
This interview is reprinted here by kind permission of ej Morgan.
JAMI MORGAN: Some RFPKD [Radio Free PKD] subscribers read your book when it first came out, and serious Dickheads may recall that you were a contributor to the original PKDS newsletter. Others will discover you and TDC in this second release. So, let’s start by going back to those early days in 1977 when you first met Phil. You were just a kid then, right?
SCOTT APEL: Well, I was 25, just out of college and my friend Kevin Briggs and I had been working on a book project called Approaching Sci Fi Authors for a couple of years. To put the time frame in perspective, this was pre-Star Wars; a time when sci-fi was still pretty much a cult interest. We were sending out letters and lining up interviews with several authors who lived in or near the California Bay area. So, one day I come home and my Mom (I was living at my parents’ house at this time) said your friend Phil called. I said, “Who? I don’t have a friend Phil.” Mom said, “He just said, ‘Tell Scott his friend Phil Dick called.’” Of course, I was blown away. We still had some trouble getting the interview set up, because he tried to back out a couple of times. But his girlfriend at the time, Joan Simpson, helped convince him. I remember she told us it would be the best thing for him right now, since he had been brooding and melancholy and was having trouble writing at the time. Anyway, he finally agreed to let us come to his home in Sonoma and do the interview. It turned into a 2-day session with us staying overnight at his house. I described the whole experience in detail in the book.
JM: You intended to just ask basic questions about how he wrote his science fiction, but this led into an entirely different area when Phil began talking about his experiences with psychic phenomenon, something you didn’t anticipate when you set up the meeting, right?
APEL: First of all, we didn’t anticipate the enormous length at which he wanted to talk about these things. Secondly, we never anticipated the enormous depth at which he wanted to approach some of these subjects. Science fiction and literature became just a jumping off point to talk about religion and philosophy. With most of the other writers [interviewed for the project] we were lucky to get an hour interview. With the really good ones, like Ted Sturgeon and Norman Spinrad, we were doing 2 hour interviews just because they had so much to say. But Phil, by comparison, had four times as much to say. Sturgeon was pretty well tapped out after the two hours, but with Phil we had over eight hours on tape. And we just decided that was the place to stop because it became obvious we could do a whole damn book just on Phil. So, yes, we certainly were taken by surprise by the depth at which he wanted to discuss the material.
JM: You were interviewing him in 1977 and Phil’s life-altering event occurred in February/March 1974. The incident he called the “2-3-74” event. So, all of this was pretty fresh at the time, right?
APEL: Exactly. In fact, the interview in The Dream Connection is THE most complete and most in depth description of those experiences that has ever been published anywhere. He may have had longer conversations with closer friends of his, like Paul Williams, but as far as what’s lasted on paper and anyone who wants to understand those experiences and doesn’t read TDC isn’t getting the full story. I’m very proud of that fact. That this most controversial part of the man’s life is the part we took most seriously, seriously enough to print it in its entirety.
JM: And it certainly is controversial, because many of his original hard-core fans are really uncomfortable with his later works and believe he had some kind of physical or biological episode or that he was even insane. There’s the whole gamut of how people react to that part of his life. But, in TDC you came away feeling he was quite sane.
APEL: Oh yeah. There is no question about it in my mind. And, I can make a claim like that if only because I have a degree in psychology and I’ve worked in mental asylums. They train you to tell the difference between people who are sane, people who are insane and people who are acting insane. Phil was not in any way crazy. There may be some biological explanation for some of his experiences; you know a brain embolism or over-medication. I’m not a medical doctor. But, I do know the man was absolutely sincere in his belief that he had an experience that was in some way outside the realm of normality. He did his best to describe it and devoted most of the rest of his life of his life trying to put it in some kind of perspective and context.
Now, if you turn to a book like Cosmic Consciousness by [Richard] Bucke, I believe his name is, a classic in the field, he writes descriptions of any number of people who claim to have had some kind of unusual experiences. They’re pretty much all the same and they’re very much like Phil’s. They all feel they’ve had some type of revelations. Now whether they’re medical or chemical, physical or spiritual, or all of the above – nobody knows exactly what that stuff is, yet the experiences all have similar characteristics. I’d say Phil is just another one. He had the gates of perception open, given whatever cause and for whatever reason. But, it certainly was not something that should be considered insane. It may be the next step in human evolution to get people of their minds and into the cosmic consciousness.
JM: Phil ranged all over the place, not only in his conversations with you but also in the Exegesis and in VALIS, trying to decide if his experiences were extra-terrestrial or contact with some disembodied entity.
APEL: Yes, was it a disembodied spirit, was it his own reincarnation memories, was it totally drug-induced, was it aliens contacting him – this was a man with an enormous imagination. So, when he came up with a theory he tried to match it to the facts, because he did have some kind of scientific training. He would think of a theory and then he’d compare it to the facts and eventually discard most of it, which I think maybe a lot of people who read about Phil’s later life fail to understand. He was approaching all this stuff in a very scientific manner by applying his theories to the data and then discarding most of it as irrational. I like to think of it as entertaining an idea. He wasn’t convinced that aliens were affecting his mind or that Russians were transmitting works of art into his head. That was a theory. The way he tested a theory was to try it out – wear it like a suit of clothes for awhile and see how comfortable it was. Eventually the flaws would appear. In fact, he used the clothing metaphor. He would find a loose thread and pull on it until the entire suit came apart. Then he’d discard that and get a new set of clothes.
JM: You devote about 75 pages to the interview that took place and then conclude with an Afterward on the conspiracy-cloaked Russian Xerox Missive. In it Phil, or actually Joan (his then-girlfriend) referred to that particular theory as the “really important part.” Can you explain what that was all about?
APEL: (pause) No, I really couldn’t. (long laughter from both of us.) That was just another piece of data in the hopper. Who knows what that was all about? I couldn’t even begin to explain it. [NOTE: Paul Williams does delve into the Xerox Missive extensively in his book Only Apparently Real for anyone who wants to further explore that point.]
JM: And, what state was VALIS in at the time of your interview with Phil?
APEL: Well, that’s a complicated subject, but it is all spelled out in great detail in TDC. He had written a book called Valisystem A which I believe became, in part, Radio Free Albemuth. By the time he released VALIS, his thinking had changed so radically that the two books appeared to be completely different. At the time we interviewed him, he had finished Valisystem A, but wasn’t happy with it. He knew there was more to it, but didn’t know what and he wanted to take it in a different direction, but wasn’t sure where.
According to Russ Galen, Phil’s agent for many years, Phil told Russ that it was our interview that helped unlock his creativity and made him think in different directions, and actually enabled him to throw it aside and start from scratch and rewrite VALIS.
JM: Wow, now that’s heavy. (pause) That really brings up the issue about David and Kevin and your feelings that at least in part, you and Kevin Briggs were incorporated into David and Kevin of VALIS.
APEL: There’s a couple of lines right out of our interview with him that comes right out of the mouths of David and Kevin in VALIS. Plus, most of the exploits in VALIS took place in Sonoma. Kevin [Briggs] called me and said, “Guess what! We’re characters in the book.” Then I read it and it was very clear to me that he did use us as characters. And, then I talked to Phil – I called him on the phone – and I said, hey, I know how you work, that you use real life people. And I know how you combine people occasionally into characters in your fiction, but I want to know is this David in VALIS actually David Scott Apel? And, is this Kevin really Kevin C. Briggs. And he said, “Sure are.” So, I got it directly from him that these characters were at least partially based on us. Now, Tim Powers and Kevin Jeter have also claimed that the characters are based on them. And I know they’re the more famous ones – the better and longer term friends of Phil’s than Kevin and I were. Yet, when I asked Phil about it, he was confirming that he at least used us in part, combining me and Tim Powers into David and Jeter and Briggs into Kevin.
You know, I hate to make a big deal out of this. I don’t want to sound like one of those people who is waving their hands for attention, yelling “Me, Me.” I just want people to know the real story. Because I’m sure at the time, even Jeter and Powers didn’t know the whole story. That’s all. And, I’m very proud to be associated in Phil’s mind with Tim Powers. He’s an enormous talent. We’ve since exchanged letters and it’s a point of honor for me that Phil would connect us in that manner.
JM: EJM: Ok, let’s discuss what you call Phase Two – the second section of the book – dealing with dream telepathy. Do you recall who first mentioned the topic? Did Phil mention dream telepathy or did you?
APEL: No, I think I did, because a good friend of mine wrote a book called Dream Telepathy and we wanted to know if Phil had read that. Actually, Phil mentioned the concept and I said what you’re talking about sounds like the same thing in the book by Alan Vaughan where he covered experiments by several scientists who actually transmit and receive material in the dream state. So, it was something Phil was definitely aware of.
JM: I bring it up because it’s crucial to the next phase of what happens in your book, AFTER Phil dies.
APEL: Well, any condensation of those experiences runs the risk of sounding crazy. Which is why I took the time and the effort to detail the entire range of experiences in the book. Any kind of summary here will make it sound like something from the psychic friends network or a bad movie, some psycho-thriller made for cable TV. But, yes, a year or so after Phil died I began having dreams about him and about subjects he had talked about. And, as someone who had been keeping a journal of dreams for over 20 years, I paid a great deal of attention to them. I was able to identify them as very different from any other type of dream I had ever had and therefore paid even more attention to them. They all seem to revolve around these ideas of Phil communicating with me. So, you know, I’m fairly open-minded, and decided, OK, I’ll entertain the idea. But, what really made my mind up to even pursue this was the tremendous number of “synchronicities” that started to cluster around Phil Dick related activity. I couldn’t ignore the links between what was happening inside my mind and outside in my own environment. So, at the risk of looking like a fool – something I excel at – I decided Phil had some kind of message that he wanted to get through. So let’s just go ahead and take the next step and try to find a medium – which for some people is perhaps a contradiction in terms. But, since I knew Alan Vaughn who wrote the book Dream Telepathy, I contacted him and set up meetings with a number of different mediums and eventually I got some decent evidential data.
[Note: Now, I won’t attempt to cover this vast amount of “evidential date” here. That is Phase 3 and takes up nearly half of the book. That’s for you to fully explore, if interested, in Philip K. Dick: The Dream Connection. What I can say is that just as Scott believes Phil was completely sane and rational, I found Scott to be quite convincing, incredibly honest and sincere— both in the book and during this interview — discussing his experiences with mediums and attemps to contact Phil on the other side. And Scott wondered aloud about why so many people had similar experiences.]
APEL: You know, I thought it was very interesting that after Phil died, others wrote about Phil making contacts... [Michael] Bishop, [Richard] Lupoff...was this same psychosis affecting them? Maybe because he WAS making a big splash in a psychic pond and ripples were going out to his friends. I just happened to be close enough to get doused. Others were far enough away to just see the ripples.
JM: And now looking back on it, what do you think the message was?
APEL: He wanted his friends to know he was OK, that he loved them and here’s some evidence that there is life after death. In some sense the whole story, in true Phil Dick fashion, transcended even the idea of interesting experiences, he wanted to come back and prove his philosophy, the stuff he spent his adult life writing about. In some sense, it’s like a footnote to say: “By the way, I’m back and I was right.”
[Note: I first read TDC in 1997 while engaged in my own series of Dickian synchronicities—“meaningful coincidences” as Scott described them. It was truly weird since I was working on a concept for my own novel which deals with Phil making contact from the hereafter [A Kindred Spirit]. When I started writing it, I had no idea so many others had tackled the topic of Phil “coming back.” Of course, I was just learning how pervasive the Phil factor is. TDC includes an essay by Ray Nelson, co-author with PKD on The Ganymede Takeover, in which Phil visits him in the dream state urging him to write a sequel to The Man in the High Castle, based on notes they once developed in a writer’s group. Just good essay material? Nelson later confirmed to Scott that he started working on the sequel because the experience with Phil was “so real.” I’ve since learned that Paul Williams, former literary executor for Phil’s estate and founder of the PKD Society (and rock historian extraordinaire), experienced untold synchronicities, at the least, and at times actual feelings of contact with Phil, during the years he spent on the PKD project. I mentioned some of this to Scott during our conversation.]
APEL: Now, what you’re saying about you and Paul Williams and other people, that’s what I’m talking about. Synchronicity is not unusual among writers or among creative people. It’s actually quite common in the creative fields. What IS unusual is that so many people who knew Phil, or were fans of Phil, have these experiences clustered around Phil Dick material. Most writers, when they experience synchronicity, think it’s a sign that they’re on the right track, discovering meaning somehow and doing what they should be doing. But, what interests me is how many people, who are fans of Phil, have experiences like this related directly to Phil Dick material. It’s another step beyond just synchronicity. It’s the added Phildickian element and the real sense that life is becoming like a Phil Dick novel. You know, am I dealing with Palmer Eldritch? In Phil’s afterlife is he a benign interfering god or like Palmer Eldritch who is going to haunt me for the rest of my friggin’ life?
[Note: Scott says the experiences stopped once he published the book in 1987 and he felt closure to that ten-year period of his life. He went on to other projects, writing nearly 600 video and movie reviews for the San Jose Mercury News, writing plays and even appearing in some Killer B movies he became notorious for reviewing. So, why re-visit the book and the strange PKD experiences now?]
APEL: A whole new generation of readers are discovering Phil on their own or thorough the Internet. The first time I published the book it was truly a labor of love, my tribute to the man—Philip K. Dick and I didn’t care if I made a dime of profit. This time my motives are a bit more mercenary—I would like to make some money.
I’ve started up this new web-based independent small press publishing business. In addition to the Phil Dick book, I’m offering Chaos and Beyond, an anthology of Robert Anton Wilson material, my own Killer B’s video guide, and a real Phildickian science fiction comic novel called MFU, which I think is one of the funniest damn things I have ever read. And, finally, I do intend to publish that collection of interviews with the science fiction authors. There is so much brilliant material from the writers, material that should not be lost or forgotten. So, for now, I just hope to get my small press off the ground and make a success of it.
[This interview was originally written in 1999 for Greg Lee’s ‘zine Radio Free PKD. Scott Apel did republish TDC as a trade paperback in July of 1999.]
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