Joseph L. "Lenny" Flatley is an American journalist, author, podcaster, movie maker and private investigator who lives in Pittsburgh. He publishes the Failed State Update Substack newsletter.
His new book, The Occult Timothy Leary: The Tarot, Magical States, and Post-Terrestrial Evolution, discusses Leary's Eight Circuit model and SMI2LE ideas and argues that Leary's system can be applied to tarot readings. It is available as a paperback and ebook from all of the usual online outlets, such as Barnes and Noble. You can also check out his publisher's author page.
Another book, New Age Grifter: The True Story of Gabriel of Urantia and his Cosmic Family was released by Feral House and his pieces have appeared in various publications, such as Please Kill Me, Postindustrial, The Verge, Pando, and CounterPunch.
I wanted to learn more about this interesting book, which I devoured quickly, so I requested an interview. It lasted for almost a half hour, and the bulk of it is transcribed here; I only deleted a few unnecessary bits, such as some kind remarks he made about my blog.
RAWILLUMINATION: As somebody who reads a lot of books, there are certain books, I hear about it or I see a description and I've just gotta read it. And your book was one of those. But as a writer who's trying to market your book, who do you see as your audience? Who were the "I have to have it" readers out there? Who do you think would run out and buy your book if they just happened to hear about it on a blog or somewhere on the Internet or from a friend or whatever?
JOSEPH L. FLATLEY: You know, it's kind of a challenge writing a book about a historical figure, especially one that's been written about pretty extensively over decades at this point. I was very well aware as a reader, not only of Leary and Wilson and that whole cohort, but all the websites and newsletters and things over the years that have kind of kept the flame alive, so to speak. I was very aware that there is an audience for this book and also that I wanted to approach the topic differently, even down to the language of circuits and the vocabulary that we kinda use in this field of endeavor. I see a lot of people kinda slipping into the same language, the same descriptions. And, you know, Norman Mailer said that -- because Norman Mailer is famous for kinda changing up his writing style with every book -- when asked about it, he said that when you write in a different style or a different voice, you're attacking the subject matter from a different angle.
So I wanted at the word level, I wanted to approach the subject differently from all the other great books that have written about Tim and Robert Anton Wilson, precisely because I think people fall into these cliches of thought. You talk about the circuits for 20 years, you stop thinking about it, you just kinda regurgitate what you're hearing.
So my book is, it's both like a primer for new Leary readers, call it a "Timothy Leary for Dummies" type book. But also I think it's great for people who are already familiar with this stuff precisely because I took efforts to write a book in a different style or different angle than all the other ones. So anybody interested in the subject matter, obviously, but also there's this large untapped, and I barely touch upon it, I feel, but there's a large untapped populace of practicing occult occultists and ceremonial magicians who might be able to benefit from looking at the circuits from that angle.
RAWILLUMINATION: Can you give me kind of a little short biography of yourself to kind of introduce yourself? I know you're a writer and I think I saw in your Substack you're a private investigator.
FLATLEY: Yeah, I'm a investigative journalist and a private investigator. At least at my level being a PI, it's not nearly as interesting as some might think it would be.
I make movies but my main focus is writing books. I've written several novellas and have had two nonfiction books published in the last few years, and I'm working on another one.
Joseph L. Flatley (Linked in photo).
RAWILLUMINATION: Do you wanna say anything about where you live?
FLATLEY: Oh yeah, I'm in Pittsburgh. Love Pittsburgh. I'm based here primarily because it's one of those places that the cost of living hasn't climbed so high yet that I can do these weird jobs like PI work and journalism and keep a roof over my head.
RAWILLUMINATION: Well, we're kind of neighbors then, because I live in the Cleveland area. And, by coincidence, I have a friend who lives in West Virginia, not super far from Pittsburgh, and I've been planning to buy him a copy of your book, so that's awesome.
FLATLEY: That's interesting. Yeah, I actually grew up in Erie, so I know Cleveland pretty well.
RAWILLUMINATION: And I've been to Erie, Pennsylvania, as you might guess.
Your dedication implies that you met Robert Anton Wilson and talked to him. Can you talk a little bit about that? [The dedication says, "For Robert Anton Wilson, who once told me he doesn't fear death. And for Antero Alli, who agreed with him."]
FLATLEY: I took the first Maybe Logic [Academy] class that he taught way back in, whenever that was, '98 or '97 and one day we hadn't heard from him for I can't remember how long, but a notable period of time.
And then when he finally got back on, he said he had fallen in in his bedroom or his bathroom and couldn't get help and he sat there for like a day, and finally I think his daughter found him. And he told the class. "Guys, the good thing to come out of this is I realized that I don't fear death," and I always kinda kept that with me.
And then years later Antero Alli announced that he had cancer and that he wasn't gonna get treated and he was going to die too. And we were emailing back and forth and I mentioned that, and he said, "Yeah, I don't think I fear death, either." And I was like, well, that's nice to know.
RAWILLUMINATION: That's a great anecdote.
Did you ever meet Timothy Leary?
FLATLEY: No, no, that was just a little before my time. I've talked to Zach Leary quite a bit, but I never met Tim.
RAWILLUMINATION: It's funny how that works out. I met Robert Shea once, but I never met Robert Anton Wilson or even took a class from him. And now I wound up doing this blog.
Your book is dedicated to Wilson and to Antero Alli. And I noticed you referenced The Starseed Signals quite a bit. Obviously that was a book that was not published until many years after Wilson's death. But do you see that as kind of a key book among Wilson's books?
FLATLEY: So that was a great gift really, that while I was writing this book that came out. Because if it wasn't for that -- I was doing a lot of time tracking down old issues of Green Egg and you know, all these little magic newsletters that Wilson had contributed to as a freelancer. The Buckland Witchcraft Museum, I'm sure you're familiar with that in Cleveland, they have a collection of those in their archives. So I've talked to Steven [Intermill] quite a bit, the director, and he was helping me out, but when The Starseed Signals came out, I was like, wow, it's all here. I can see why it wasn't published or why it wasn't going to be published by a major publisher unless there was some serious editing because it's very much a first draft.
But talk about a first draft of history. It's, you know, it's like really Wilson's man on the scene description of precisely him and Tim working through these ideas. And it was invaluable.
RAWILLUMINATION: Kind of the way I would describe it is that in a sense it's sort of a first draft for Cosmic Trigger. But it has enough interesting material that at least for a serious Wilson fan, it really kind of stands on its own.
FLATLEY: Yeah. absolutely. You know it is a first draft in a lot of ways for Cosmic Trigger and also, for The Game of Life, Timothy Leary's book.
There's kind of this question of why Leary stopped talking about magic so soon. I just really feel like he was always on the move. He was going so fast. He had 76 years on this planet, and in 1993, he's not gonna waste his time talking about what happened in 1973. So I totally understand, but I don't feel like any of it was disavowed. And that was the project of this book, kinda go through everything, everything I could get my hands on. See how Western esotericism as well as Eastern practices influenced Leary in the subtle ways that often didn't get pointed out just because Tim really didn't footnote it. He was putting that these fabulous ideas together. He wasn't really, I don't think, so concerned about a meticulous cataloging of where they came from.
RAWILLUMINATION: The structure of your book, I thought was kind of interesting. I read every word from start to finish, but I kinda have the impression that chapters one through eight were meant to be read and that chapters 9 and 10 were really sort of like a reference section. Do you think it's a fair description of the book or do you want to modify that?
FLATLEY: I certainly think some people will use the book that way, which is totally understandable and totally valid. The way I was able to sell it was precisely because Inner Traditions is an occult publisher. It's actually Destiny Books, an imprint of Inner Traditions. They're an occult publisher. Your readers are occultists. I know you've already done several Timothy Leary books, but this one's about tarot cards.
RAWILLUMINATION: The cover is credited to Adam Scott Miller. I don't know the artist, but it's kind of a witty cover with Timothy Leary as Aleister Crowley. Were you happy with the cover?
FLATLEY: Yeah. You know, I'm really curious. I keep forgetting to ask my editor, but either that image or a very similar image was used in, I'm blanking on the name of the magazine, but John Higgs, the author of I Have America Surrounded, before he wrote that biography of Leary, he had done a feature article about Leary and mysticism and Crowley and I know that that was the cover art for that going back, what, 20 years. And that was the magazine art.
So I don't know, it's the same guy that did the cover or if they got permission or what, but I think it's pretty clever. I really like it.
RAWILLUMINATION: Yeah, I thought it was too.
So are you a long time tarot reader and if so, how did your research for this book influence how you do readings? Did it influence you a great deal?
FLATLEY: I'm a long term tarot dabbler. I'm not gonna be able to sit down with nothing but a deck of cards and a burning question and be able to tell the thing, tell what they're saying. But I can read a reference book. And partially I wanted to see if we examined the tarot cards, not in like the traditional A.E. Waite descriptions, but a Learian take. I wanted to see if it would still kind of give good, valid readings. And I have to say, it does. I think that what Leary discussed as far as the tarot goes doesn't replace anything, but it's a really good complement to anybody's tarot practice.
Leary always talked about the transaction, dimensionalizing to use that word, even though I don't really think that's a word. Dimensions of things like a single unit isn't very meaningful. But once you and I start talking and we can have an interaction, that's where you start to see the true nature of the individual. And that's how I approach tarot readings.
I do a kinda idiosyncratic method where I pull one Major Arcana card and I have a deck that I made myself that's like Leary's Trumps, because he added two tarot Trumps to the deck. So I use that. I draw that and then I draw a Minor Arcana card. It's not like each card has a message, but what is the interaction between these two cards? What is that message?And then also, Brian Barritt taught John Higgs, how Tim read tarot cards and he had his own weird way of reading tarot cards. He wrote about it in his book and I emailed him for some clarifications and then explained that in my book as well.
RAWILLUMINATION: John's really a great guy. He's very kind, the way he interacts with people and he seems like he's pretty busy since he's become more of a major author, but he's always been nice to me.
FLATLEY: Me too. I'm so grateful when people who have busy lives and are doing interesting things will take the time to talk to me. I reached out to quite a few people who knew Tim or had some expertise and a lot of people, I'm not naming names, I don't blame them, but a lot of people just, like, would not talk. I think it was like, 'I've been talking about Timothy Leary for 50 years. Leave me alone.' But, you know, who am I? Some guy they never heard of. But I am very grateful to the people who did talk to me. R. U. Sirius. Richard Metzger. Douglas Rushkoff. Liz Elliott, Brian Barritt's partner. They're all in the book. I thank them all in the acknowledgments. It's been a real gift to be able to do this book and to be able to talk to so many cool people about a subject I'm so fascinated by.
RAWILLUMINATION: I did a blog post on your Psychedelic Press interview, which I thought was quite interesting. And I quoted a paragraph from that about the mission of the book.
You said Leary was very well educated and understood science, but his project wasn't scientific, even if it used the language of science. It was pseudoscience. "And I mean that the best possible way." Can you kinda clarify what you mean by "pseudoscience in the best possible way?"
FLATLEY: When you approach something using the scientific method, using the various tools of research in science that we've kind of developed over the years to come to theories that seem to answer some very big questions, that's science. When you take a bunch of drugs and think and have great thoughts and write them down, even if you're a brilliant man like Leary, who is a systems thinker who's able to rigorously think through these ideas and put pen to paper and create a very fascinating world view out of it, one that holds up to scrutiny, you don't actually have proof of any of it, that's not science, it's just not.
Tim writes very convincingly about humankind eventually not only getting off this planet, but going to the cosmic center, engaging in some sort of communion with the black hole there and becoming part of the cosmic consciousness. OK! What the hell's that? I mean, it's great, but I don't think any of us are gonna be around to see that happen. I'm not entirely convinced that entering a black hole would be good for anybody. That's science, right?
RAWILLUMINATION: It seemed to be pretty clear to me that you probably read all the available Leary biographies or books about Leary that you could get your hands on. I've read some of them, but I'm probably not as up to speed as you are. Do you have a favorite Leary biography or a favorite book about Leary that you thought was especially good?
FLATLEY: You know, they all have their value. Like Robert Greenfield wrote the kinda the big standard tome that's just called Timothy Leary: A Biography. It's the size of a phone book. And Greenfield's one of these writers that it's like, I've read a few of his books and he doesn't seem to really like or appreciate anybody he's writing about. And I know for a fact that Tim's family was pissed off by that book. And I understand why because you read it and there's kind of impeccable research, but he always spins everything in the worst possible light. That was probably the most valuable book for me precisely because it had all the sources.
But if somebody's hoping to get into Timothy Leary for the first time or just because they find him fascinating, that's probably not the best book. John Higgs' book, I Have America Surrounded, it's fast, it's fun. He's a great writer. He had some great access.
There's a journalist, John Bryan, Whatever Happened to Timothy Leary? This book came out, this is a amazing book. It came out in 1980. John Bryan was a journalist who ran an alternative press syndicate, underground press guy on the West Coast of the 70s and was like one of the big movers there. And he covered Tim in real time and he put out a book in 1980. Someone that was in there in the thick of it, it's really invaluable. But he also seemed to like misunderstand or dislike Leary.
So they all have their virtues. I would definitely urge the reader to buy my book.
RAWILLUMINATION: Well, it's actually quite a nice biography of Leary among its other virtues. You kind of covered the high points and kind of cover his evolution.
FLATLEY: It's easy to write something 30 years after somebody dies. My point in delving into this was like, really, what are the footprints? You know, what are the bread crumbs of Leary's occult interests? So when I read Flashbacks and he's recounting talking to his grandfather in the 1930s or whatever, I'm looking at that. I'm like, what's the esoteric angle? Is there an esoteric angle? And so I don't know if you would call what I wrote revisionism or just like following bread crumbs, but I strongly feel that he had an esoteric evolutionary perspective from the very beginning, even if he didn't realize it or didn't have the words for it. Because you know what 14 year old does?
RAWILLUMINATION: His explanation of how he was the reincarnation of Crowley is hilarious in your book. I love that particular anecdote.
I only have a couple more questions. I feel like I've gotten a lot out of you. I kind of wondered if you had like an origin story, if you wanted to explain how you got interested in Leary or Wilson or the Eight Circuit model in the first place, if there was a particular instance or a particular book that turned you on on.
FLATLEY: In 1989. I was like an eigth grader on computer bulletin board systems interacting with all these weirdos. This was like pre Internet and one of my friends was bought Neuropolitique from Loompanics, the old underground publisher and book seller and he was like, You gotta read this. So I read the hell out of it and I was in the eighth grade. I didn't understand any of it, but I did have a sense like all the writing about the Eight Circuit model, which I don't think he even used that term, but you know about circuits and psychological, different states of consciousness. It really resonated with me. I was like, I think this is how the world works, even at that early age. And I've always seen that is how the world works. So it's like it was either a privilege to discover that stuff at such an early age or maybe it was a curse. I don't know. But it's been with me kind of my whole life.
RAWILLUMINATION: BBS is such a fascinating thing, kind of a really early decentralized Internet. I loved dialing into them exploring them it's kind of a lost culture and I wonder how many people remember that anymore.
FLATLEY: Oh, I know At the time it seemed very annoying, but now looking back, there was so something so wonderful about all the things in our technology that made us stop and wait. Like, yeah, yeah.
A lot of these BBS's were, it was like their home phone during the day, but you could call at night between like 10 p.m. and 8 a.m. or something. Not all of them had dedicated phone lines.
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